Curse

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

An Open Letter to Anet

I'd like to start by thanking you for producing a well-balanced and thoughtful MMO experience that is, in my opinion, unmatched in any way. Though I have played other MMOs, I have made Guild Wars my home. One of the main reasons for this is the storyline, and my attachment to the characters.

While it is true that some people only PVP, and many don't care at all about the story, I can say that there is a fair percentage of people who love the characters, the lore, the world of Tyria. We play Guild Wars to immerse ourselves in that world. That is a credit to your skill of creation.

By the same token, because you've created such a staggeringly well thought-out process, when I see points in the storyline that don't make sense, or pull me out of character, they are greatly exaggerated.

As an example, in the Blacktide Den mission in Nightfall, we're asked to steal some Corsair garb and meet with General Khayet. The entire mission is a wonderful continuation of the storyline. The problem I have with the mission is with the bonus and not just because it's annoying.

When you steal the Corsair garb, you're given a bonus to eliminate rinkhal monitors from the area. For a game, that's not a problem. For a world it is, because though you've placed text on the screen telling me what I have to do, you haven't given my characters any motivation at all for doing so. My characters can't SEE my screen. Sure I did it, I wanted a title, but there was no explanation of why I had to do it. What is the significance of rinkhal monitors and why do I abandon my very important mission of following Captain Besuz to hunt a few monsters that aren't really different from most other monsters from a character's perspective?

The best mission bonuses are often in Prophecies, where they were justified. Helping to locate a hidden threat, or steal plans for a Stone Summit weapon is something that would motivate my character. Even putting a restless spirit to rest is something that could conceivably motivate my character.

Another issue that has disturbs me, involves Factions, which is a very underrated game in my opinion. Every Guild Wars product (I've beaten them all in normal mode, as has my wife) has its own brand of strength, and I love them all. But then, I'm asked to make an alliance with a Guild in Factions, yet there are quests where I have to kill my own allies. Places where, as a Luxon, I still am forced to kill Luxons. There really isn't anything I can think of in Factions to motivate me to kill members of my own alliance. I don't really think it was necessary to the plot of the game. Certainly not for secondary quests.

I think that might be what disturbs me the most. Adding the motivation for my characters isn't something that would cost a great deal of money. By pointing out why rinkhal monitors needed to be eliminated, just a small text aside, would have made my enjoyment of an already great game more complete.

One final comment about Nightfall. In the cut scene where Tahlkora admits she's always understood that she was just a student to Koss, and Melonni could have him, that entire scene didn't have the impact that it should have had, because I wasn't aware in any real sense that anything existed between Tahlkora and Koss in the first place. I found myself more perplexed than anything else. Sure there are text messages, that float up occasionally, where Tahlkora shows an interest in Koss. However, since those messages often come up while fighting rather than being printed in a large box, or in your text window, I missed all of them. So did my wife. So did everyone else I asked about it. As the creator, you are privy to storyline elements and may think that it's clear Tahlkora is in love with Koss, or at least has a crush on him, but you didn't make it clear to the players. Though a cut scene would have been nice, it only required a small aside or part of a quest dialogue to establish this in our mind. So when the cut scene did appear in the story arc, it would have been more accessible to the players.

I'd like to finish by saying, a lot of people don't notice things like this, but as a writer, story is part and parcel of my business. You've created a remarkable game and, far from complaining, I'm just hoping to give you something to consider while working on Guild Wars 2, which I thoroughly intend to buy.

Thanks again, for all the hours of enjoyment.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz

ajc2123 · Jun 11, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

I've always wondered about the rikthal monitors also...and Tahlkora and koss...

Also wtf do people see in koss! >_<

Yeah I can see where this would bug RPers, but I think its almost impossible to make a perfect RP game without loosing gameplay.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

In my examples, nothing would have affected roleplaying at all. The beauty of character motivation, is that it requires very little to explain things. What gameplay would be lost. It would have been even easier, in the Blacktide Den mission to have included a different bonus, that aided the storyline, without putting in something that had nothing to do with it. Gameplay would not have to suffer.

I'm sure that talent at Anet could easily create the same level of gameplay, while keeping characters realistically motivated.

Asia Skyly · Jun 11, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Thanks for a well thought out letter. I echo the sentiments that:
1. I love this game
2. This is a great game
3. Plot elements should be better explained, which costs little, and greatly enhances the story.

I would add to your Faction comment, that I am still unclear on the entire Shiro plot. It really felt like "blah blah Shiro blah blah faction wars blah blah Shiro". Something went missing in that plot for me...

MithranArkanere · Jun 11, 2009, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Yeah, there should be an option to make Henchmen text lines appear in the party channel, otherwise you miss lots of them.

Thankfully, when Dunkoro explains you how to raid the Kournan fortresses dialogs pop up.

And I'm still wonder why are we supposed to kill those Rinkhal. They don't say that it's due a plague or anything.

Toxic OnyX · Jun 11, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

YAY not seen "an open letter to A-net" in months w00t

what is even rarer is that it isn't a QQ fest, GZ on this sensible post Khyr

(btw don't expect a-net to actually do anything at all or if they do expect to see it implemented by 2012)

Aljasha · Jun 11, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

well-written post, khyr.

i hope, gw2 will be more like prophecies than any of the other campaigns or expansion. prophecies had this great freedom of an open world, the introduction to pvp while pveing and a well presented story. i am glad that anet tried stuff with the other campaigns and the expansion for the sake of trial and error and that they found, over time, the right direction.

Verene · Jun 11, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Nice letter, and I mostly agree.

However, I must state that for the most part? Mission bonuses for Prophecies tend to be completely out of the way and totally irrelevant, in my opinion. Unlike Nightfall where the only one I can think of that's kind of "um, okay" is, as you mentioned, the rinkhal monitors.

Shasgaliel · Jun 11, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Very nice letter. There are indeed some inconsistencies in the story. I agree that Prophecies had the most coherent storyline with several quests adding a lot to the main story. Several quests seem to be out of the blue and it would be nice to get them reworked. For me quite weird bonus was killing glint...

BrettM · Jun 11, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

However, I must state that for the most part? Mission bonuses for Prophecies tend to be completely out of the way and totally irrelevant, in my opinion.

The Prophecies bonuses are generally irrelevant to the mission goal itself, but that wasn't Khyr's point. You always encounter some NPC out in the middle of the mission who gives a reason to your character for diverting from the main track, so it all takes place in a role-playing context.

I have to agree this is superior to giving the bonus goal to the player rather than the character. I also dislike most of the time bonuses, especially in Factions, for the same reason. There is rarely any indication of why your character would need to hurry, and most of them seem to involve beating the clock simply for the sake of beating the clock. (One exception being Raisu Palace, where you have a limited amount of time to reach the emperor because he's under attack.)

Verene · Jun 11, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

The Prophecies bonuses are generally irrelevant to the mission goal itself, but that wasn't Khyr's point. You always encounter some NPC out in the middle of the mission who gives a reason to your character for diverting from the main track, so it all takes place in a role-playing context.

That is true, however. If you were actually your character, and you were, say, sent out to scout and some ghost asked you to return his armor, would you drop what you were ordered to do in order to do so? Or while trying to stop the Mursaat, escort a ghost to a random part of the island?

Yes, there is the fact that there's an NPC asking you to do stuff, which is why we do the bonuses in Prophecies. My point, though, was that they tend to either add nothing to the plot itself nor appear to aid anything, and in fact can actively detract from it. They take place in a roleplaying sense, but don't make any logical sense at all and there's no good reason why your character would agree to do the majority of them, so it also sort of breaks the RP feel. Riverside Province and Hell's Precipice are the only ones I can think of off-hand where the mission bonuses are actually useful and there is good reason why our characters would do it.

ogre_jd · Jun 11, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Also wtf do people see in koss! >_<

Dunno. Koss does virtually nothing useful except force me to take him along and steals my thunder in cutscenes. Really, he's the Mr. Satan/Hercule of Guild Wars, IMHO. :P

(and, yes, that's what makes me hate Nightfall - being forced to take him, Dunkoro, Melonni, Talkhora, that arrogant centaur, the idiot general, etc., along for primary quests and missions rather than being able to decide on my own party composition)

Reverend Dr · Jun 11, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

It is hard to have a story and motivation when most of the game is 'follow the green arrow.'

Snow Bunny · Jun 11, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

It is hard to have a story and motivation when most of the game is 'follow the green arrow.'

It's harder to have a story and motivation when you're one of 2 million other people commissioned to be the savior of the land.

Warvic · Jun 11, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Hi, nice post! I agree with your points.
But I play this game since release, so I have done everything. and completed all missions etc. what i'm trying to say is. players like me dont care about the story anymore (after 4 years). the only thing I see now is yellow numbers and titles etc. I still love this game <3

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warvic

Hi, nice post! I agree with your points.
But I play this game since release, so I have done everything. and completed all missions etc. what i'm trying to say is. players like me dont care about the story anymore (after 4 years). the only thing I see now is yellow numbers and titles etc. I still love this game <3

But you don't write a game, just for people who have been playing for four years, and GW2, no one has been playing yet at all. This is not an attempt to get Anet to fix GW. I assume that boat has already sailed. I'm asking they LOOK AT similar things in GW2, so when it comes it, I'm not pulled out of the game.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asia Skyly

I would add to your Faction comment, that I am still unclear on the entire Shiro plot. It really felt like "blah blah Shiro blah blah faction wars blah blah Shiro". Something went missing in that plot for me...

I actually quite like the Shiro plot, and didn't find it that hard to understand, per se. Though factions is a VERY fast game, and you have to really think to stay up on it. Salient points are as follows...

200 plus years before the game starts, on the day of the Jade Wind, Shiro Tagachi slays the Emperor of Cantha for reasons no one knows.

He was later slain by two great heroes, one from each of the factions, Kurzick and Luxon. This would be Viktor and Archemorous. I assume the disagreement over who really slew Shiro is what actually started the feud between the factions in the first place.

Shiro was given the "job" of escorting new dead to the underworld, as one of the envoys, but used his time working with the physical to research ways to be reborn.

Those who got too close to Shiro, became the afflicted, which everyone thought was a disease at first, but turned out to be something else entirely.

Togo realizes Shiro is about to return and so then, with you, starts trying to find out the how's and whys.

He's told directly that in order to stop shiro, he needs to reunite the factions and get the help of both the heroes who have slain him before.

The plot then centers around getting the Spear of Archemorous, which is here the Luxon champion's soul is stored and the Urn of Saint Viktor, where the Kurzick champions soul is stored.

Shiro, wants to be reborn. Of course, during the story, we find that he wasn't actually acting under his own influence and another influenced him. It is particularly gratifying for me, that we get to go after that person in Nightfall. I thought that was a great touch.

I honestly don't know what you found inaccessible about the story.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

[QUOTE=BrettM;4682518]The Prophecies bonuses are generally irrelevant to the mission goal itself, but that wasn't Khyr's point. You always encounter some NPC out in the middle of the mission who gives a reason to your character for diverting from the main track, so it all takes place in a role-playing context.

Thanks, yes, that WAS my point. And even though I can't necessarily see going out of my way to stop what I'm doing to say, save a spirit's soul, at least I know WHY I'm doing it. And truthfully, putting a soul to rest, in my mind, is a worthy endeavor. Sure, I wouldn't likely drop everything to do it, but you can't have everything. It would be nice if the bonuses made sense from a storyline point of view, but I'd be happy if at least I knew why my character was supposed to do them.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Very nice letter. There are indeed some inconsistencies in the story. I agree that Prophecies had the most coherent storyline with several quests adding a lot to the main story. Several quests seem to be out of the blue and it would be nice to get them reworked. For me quite weird bonus was killing glint...

Oddly enough, I hadn't thought about this, but you're 100% right. There wasn't much reason to kill Glint. I can only assume, that you went to the eggs and had to kill her in self defense, which is part of the story. I mean, once she attacks you, what choice do you have?

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 11, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

It is hard to have a story and motivation when most of the game is 'follow the green arrow.'

I have to disagree with this to some degree. If you want, you can always move your u map to block your radar, which I do sometimes, but the story is still the story. I can separate to some degree game mechanics from the story, as long as I'm sufficiently motivated.

In Pre-searing Ascalon, I was having fun, enjoying some simple quests, met some nice people and the next thing you know, the place is a wreck, people have died, and I felt it. That is the kind of thing that, for me, makes GW a stand out game. I tried other games, and never "felt" them.